An Informal Look at AMA C Class (lengthy post)

Also found this. So if I'm an A motocross rider , I can ride B? I am definitely confused by what is being said here. Actually I like the discussion, but really, I could care a rat's ass. I'm 57 and I just want to ride my dirtbike,


RIDER CLASSIFICATION
GNCC has a total of 107 classes to compete in, ranging from the youngest youth groups to the Pro XC1 levels. In between, there are various skill level classes, i.e., “A” Expert, “B” Intermediate, and “C” Novice. It is important when competing in a skill level class that a rider select the proper class in accordance with their official AMA classification. Some riders wrongly assume they can compete in a higher classification locally, then “ride down” at the national level, i.e., race “A” in their local series and “B” at the nationals. This is not permitted.

Riders can check their official AMA classification by visiting the online AMA Race Center. The AMA Race Center lists all AMA race results for every rider since 2006. Each AMA rider in turn has their own Rider Profile listing their results and designating their official rider classification. To view a rider’s profile, go to http://results.americanmotorcyclist.com/, select “Rider” in the drop box, and enter either the rider name or AMA number. The Rider Profile will list all AMA results for that rider, their total points accumulated, RPV (Rider Performance Value), and most importantly, their classification.

A rider’s classification is determined through the National Advancement System as outlined in the AMA Rulebook (Section 1.1.E), as well as the classification in which the rider has participated previously, whether it be in AMA competition or Non-AMA competition.

All riders must compete at the classification as listed on their Profile page. There are no exceptions to this requirement. If a rider feels they are “non-competitive” in the class in which they are classified, or are incorrectly classified, they may appeal to the AMA for re-classification. The classification appeal process and form can be found on the AMA Website. Under no circumstances may a rider move back in class without AMA approval.

GNCC strongly encourages all riders to check their AMA Rider Profile and verify their classification. Please be advised that the AMA, AMA organizers and your fellow riders are monitoring your results and classification. If you are riding out of class you may be removed from those results, lose series points, lose any qualifying status up to that point, and be required to compete in the correct class.

For questions on eligibility, how to appeal your classification or to add your photo (head shots only) to your profile page, contact the AMA at 614-856-1900 or mxracing.@amacycle.org. If emailing a photo to add to a profile, include your full name and AMA number to assure proper placement.

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So say someone who is an A rider in AMA Mx but has never raced a GNCC. Are they an A rider in GNCC, by definition? Just curious.
 
I was recently browsing youtube and found a video of someone that said they came from 36th to 18th at Briaircliff in 450c. Holy cow!!! No way I would want to get in those guys way! Is there a D Class? They're jumping everything with no problem, and whipping doing it!!!

 
It was definitely a while ago, 2000 time frame. We had a wicked group of mini racers then that ended up as pros. It's crazy looking back now at all the battles we had, to the careers they had/are having. (Gracyk, Grabiel, Bowers, Browning, Ames, Willard, etc) definitely was a stacked group. I went and got my district card in '06 and it was MX-B. It was pretty funny trying to remember how to ride dirt after years of road racing.
Gavin is coming back home for a weekend again this year to work with our kids I believe. He came up last year after I had got all set up. Then my boys mom wouldnt let me have him, so I just went and help repeat Gavins words. This year the boy will be there!
 
Are you sure? I read this as "A" is "A". But maybe MX isn't included. Who knows. Ambiguous, like most rules by the AMA.......


From the rules of the GNCC......

  1. Riding Out Of Class: Riders must compete in their designated or assigned skill level and may not “ride down” at the GNCC, i.e., riders that compete at the “A” or “B” level in any other series or events must compete at the “A” or “B” level in GNCC. This applies to AMA and non-AMA sanctioned events. Riders determined to be riding out of class will be removed from the race results and prohibited from competing further in such class, and the class rescored. Objections to class eligibility must be supported by data and will be accepted up to 48 hours after results are posted. Email objections to results@gnccracing.com.



BTW, I thought it was a very well written read. Thank you for posting. Shows why the sport has no pros in it anymore.....

I'm sure.

Off-Road 2.1
B. Riders and Classification
2. Self-Advancement
c. Riders who race in MX and Off-Road and have different classifications in each type of racing may not vary more than one level.

In the "A is A, B is B, C is C" article it addresses this specific situiation -

http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Home/News-Story/a-is-a-b-is-b-c-is-c

"The AMA rules are very clear on classification. If you’re an A, then you’re an A, you’re an A. There is no way to have dual classification, unless you are an off-road racer racing motocross or track racing or vice versa. In that case, you can vary by one skill level. For example, if you are an A enduro rider and you would like to race motocross, you can race no lower than the B class. If you are an A motocross rider, you can race no lower than B in GNCC, etc. If you’re caught riding out of class, the penalties are severe and can be as high as a one-year suspension. So, don’t do that please."

Granted I serve a "warning" before doing any type of suspension first, the idea is to drill it in that you need to ride in the right class.

Glad this guy quoted my article in his post however, it was directed at Off-Road and not at MX as MX doesn't have a AA class. The reason I didn't mention the "appeal" process is that this article was about riding in the correct class, not about appealing your classification. The classification appeal is done by an AMA appeal board made up of AMA congressmen, the AMA staff doesn't have a vote it only organizes the appeal board.

I will work with GNCC to clarify that their rule is regarding "Off-Road" classification and not all classification across the board.
 
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So say someone who is an A rider in AMA Mx but has never raced a GNCC. Are they an A rider in GNCC, by definition? Just curious.

No, They aren't anything until they actually do it. They can race no lower than B in GNCC (off-road), but can also race A as they are eligible.
 
I was recently browsing youtube and found a video of someone that said they came from 36th to 18th at Briaircliff in 450c. Holy cow!!! No way I would want to get in those guys way! Is there a D Class? They're jumping everything with no problem, and whipping doing it!!!

Vet 30 C is my answer now that I'm old lol. I can't imagine lining up with a full gate of 250C kids now. Work comes on Monday haha
 
I was recently browsing youtube and found a video of someone that said they came from 36th to 18th at Briaircliff in 450c. Holy cow!!! No way I would want to get in those guys way! Is there a D Class? They're jumping everything with no problem, and whipping doing it!!!


Crazy huh? That's where we're at in motocross today. I think of myself as a B rider, at least I am in the woods. When I stopped racing motocross a few years ago I was a back of the pack B guy or a front-pack C guy. Now days, I'd be lucky to finish in the top half of a C-Class moto. Everyone is scared to move up, and I can't understand it. I always thought it was pretty embarrassing to run the C class, especially if I had the skill to even be mildly competitive in B. I'd much rather tell chicks I'm a B rider than a goofy C rider.....
 
Crazy huh? That's where we're at in motocross today. I think of myself as a B rider, at least I am in the woods. When I stopped racing motocross a few years ago I was a back of the pack B guy or a front-pack C guy. Now days, I'd be lucky to finish in the top half of a C-Class moto. Everyone is scared to move up, and I can't understand it. I always thought it was pretty embarrassing to run the C class, especially if I had the skill to even be mildly competitive in B. I'd much rather tell chicks I'm a B rider than a goofy C rider.....


Well, the speed of C is what it is after all the problems of advancement. This is why there isn't many pros today at the nationals like 10 years ago. And the pros that don't make it work at a school like Club MX.

C class is the new A class...
CRAZY...........
 
C class is the new A class...
CRAZY...........

That's a bit of a stretch. But there are several super fast C riders for sure. The biggest issue and loop hole in the whole system is created by the AMA themselves. They advance someone from C to B. That rider then files and Appeal to the AMA to bump back down to C class because they are not "competitive" in the B class. The AMA basically issues all appeals from the looks of the research that has been done. And these guys continue on for Loretta Lynn's glory.

When you first advance to B from C, in most situations, your NOT going to be running at the front of the pack. Does that make you non-competitive? Absolutely not. But yet the AMA grants the appeal. Why? And looking at the research that's been completed about the guys winning the qualifiers and regionals, this is 100% correct. So why does the AMA not say, sorry....your a B rider? Makes no sense to me. I really would like to hear Alex's justification for the appeals that are granted.

In my opinion, if you have any number on your AMA card larger than a 3, your not eligible for a Novice class at Loretta Lynns. This would keep it a novice class. Pretty simple. And yes, that means kids like my son would not be eligible for the class. My son has raced for 10 years. He is riding schoolboy and 250C as a 13 year old. Should be a mini Sr. rider. He had a lot of success as a mini Jr. rider two years ago before moving to a 125. Even at that, he is no where near the speed to compete at the front of the C class at a big race. That should tell you that the C class is not a Novice class.
 
That is actually legal within the AMA rules. by AMA rules, an MX Pro racer is considered MX A in amateur competition. As an MX A rider your classification can vary 1 skill level between disciplines. So he is legal to race Off-Road B.

The ONLY leg work you have to do for me to correct it is to tell me and show proof and they're out.

A simple look at lap times from the regionals will tell you all you need to know. Many C riders have lap times that rival mid to upper B class and even lower A class times.
 
A simple look at lap times from the regionals will tell you all you need to know. Many C riders have lap times that rival mid to upper B class and even lower A class times.

Being "fast" doesn't give you an automatic bump. if you have ridden up in class at any AMA or Non-AMA event, that's another thing.
 
Being "fast" doesn't give you an automatic bump. if you have ridden up in class at any AMA or Non-AMA event, that's another thing.
How do you justify the guys winning and in the top 10 in regionals, a majority of them have been bumped, yet the AMA granted appeals to go back to C class for being "non-competitive". That does not fly if your in the top 10 at a regional, and have been bumped up. Does the AMA really evaluate this, or just go ahead and grant it if they have never filed for an appeal before?
 
How do you justify the guys winning and in the top 10 in regionals, a majority of them have been bumped, yet the AMA granted appeals to go back to C class for being "non-competitive". That does not fly if your in the top 10 at a regional, and have been bumped up. Does the AMA really evaluate this, or just go ahead and grant it if they have never filed for an appeal before?

The AMA absolutely evaluates it and the AMA appeal board, made up of 3 AMA congressmen, vote on each decision. Each vote has different situations and each are looked at individually by the appeal board.
 
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So that does not state how they justify it? How can a guy get bumped to B.....appeal, and win and the majority of the top 10 in a regional all be C class riders that won appeal to stay C If your winning your regional, I don't buy that your not competitive in B class. They are approving these people to continue racing C class. Does not make sense to me.
 
If you looks closely here you'll find 1 of the 3 AMA congressman "individually" determining situations to appeal bumps from b to c. As you can see, it is very personal as there aren't many petitions each year.
IMG_6193.PNG



In the following photo you will see a timeline that has been fast forward 3 days later. You'll notice the same congressman after making nearly no progress--(and additionally another stack of appeals shows up from the post office) approving the just amount of appeals, (may or may not be all of them and it may or may not be personal)
IMG_6194.JPG
 
John it's was an interesting comment you put in your post about if your AMA card has a 3 or larger you are not a "C" rider. So, I looked at his AMA card and it has a 3. That doesn't tell the whole story but it could possibly be used as part of the criteria for moving a rider on to the B class.
 
I am not sure what the answer is. Hell, my kids has a 10 on his card and he's 13. Is he a C rider? But where the class is today, he is. I know alot of kids go from 85s to B class. Both our sons came off 85s way earlier than most kids, so where do you put those kids?

The whole C class advancement is just kind of a joke to me. Honestly, they might as well just let anyone run it except once you make lorettas, you must go B. I don't think it would really change anything from where the class is today.
 
I'm no longer apart of the appeal process... actually I've never been apart of the appeal process. Three AMA Congressman review the appeals and make a decision. The AMA offices only collect the appeals and organize the meetings. Either way... the same thread on vital has some good info.. he is actually one of the three Congressman's comments below...

First it is not that a rider is non competitive in the lower class, it is that he is non competitive in the higher class.

So, lets look at this riders C class results vs. your son's results from 2016 (the year in which he was advanced).

Adam Johnson raced 250C 7 times in 2016 and had an RPV of 15.42 (108 points/7 races) meaning he scored an average of 15.42 points per race. He had one race with a big gate where he scored 35 points. Since the sample size of 7 races is pretty small, this one race moved him from a 12.16 to a 15.42. Adam also had no races for the 7 months between March 11th to October 16th due to injuries and other assorted issues. Those were the things that were taken into account in his appeal.

So lets look at TR:

TR scored 90 points on 5 races which would have been an RPV of 18 if he would have had the required 6 races. So had TR raced one more time in 2016, even finishing last he would have had a 15 RPV and would have been advanced to B. Had you filed an appeal, the committee would have looked at the limited number of races he had, and the one race where he scored 35 points, which skewed his average, and probably given him the benefit of the doubt.

So Adam Johnson and your son were basically the same rider in 2016 with your son actually having better average finishes, but Adam having 2 more races. I don't know either of the kids, but if I had to guess, the difference from 2016 to 2017 is geographical. He lives in Florida and rode all winter, and you live in Ohio where you lose 4 months every year.

The advancement appeal committees are certainly not perfect but they also don't just take the money and rubber stamp each appeal. The following steps are taken with each rider:

1. Complete review of the riders results history in AMA and non AMA competition when available. Not just the results, but the level of competition at the races. Evidence of sandbagging (tanking races at the end of the year) is looked for and if found usually leads to an immediate denial.

2. Discussion with the local district officials on each rider appealing. Many times this is the best place to get info on the rider and how the local district will be affected if his/her appeal is approved.

3. Discussion with the rider and / or the riders parents. What caused the gaps in racing results. What injuries did the rider have? What personal issues did the rider or family go through?

4. Calling any references, though not a lot of weight is typically given to these. What rider in their right mind is going to provide a reference that isn't firmly on their side.

A committee of three decides each appeal and one of the committee members is responsible for the 4 steps above for each rider.

Not perfect, but a lot more goes into it than you think.
 
As for the 3 on the AMA card stuff.. well that's dumb. I personally know many lifetime C riders. I actually parked with one this weekend. He's 21 years old... been racing since he was on PWs... finished last in the LCQ of 450 C at the regional. He has no business being in the B class.
 
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