Vintage Shocks.....Experiences and Opinions please!

NQ1965

NQ1965

PR Elite
Anybody wanna give up some testimony on 4" travel Vintage shocks. The goods, The bads?
Surely we have some valuable opinions and experience on this.

Starting at nearly $600 and going higher from there, are the high end gas shocks worth it? Do they really perform better with only 4" travel?

Thanks
NQ
 
Maybe if I take out my springs, cut them off shorter, chuck'em up in vice and stretch them back out to length so they're not wound so tight maybe I'll get more bounce out of them ????? :)
 
It is hard to believe that any shocks could make a difference in only 4 inches of travel but they do . Stock shocks and era shocks , no matter how nice of shape , do little more than keep the tire off the fender . The one exception to that may be the adjustable Koni's but a good pair of those , rebuilt , will cost almost as much as modern replacements . Progressives are non-rebuildable and offer little more than stock units other than being fresh and new . OK for a novice who doesn't jump and races once or twice a year . I've seen you race ;unfortunately you're gonna need to go the high $$$ route . That means Works Performance , Ohlins , or Race Tech . There is a shock manufacturer out of England called Falcon but I don't know anyone who has tried them . Ohlin's are great performers but I hear they are around a grand these days . Hard to believe . Lots of my buddies have them and love them but they were purchased when they were " cheap " . I have ridden some of their bikes and can tell you they do work well . Race Tech units were megabucks to start with and I don't know of anyone who has those either . That pretty much leaves Works as the only option . I went with them for my Husky 250 Mag when I decided to upgrade after trying to go the less expensive route of ebay finds ( those were either crap when I got them or would blow seals after a couple rides - they were OLD ) . Works was great to deal with when I called and ordered my shocks . They asked about the bike , my size , rider skills ( or in my case , lack thereof ) , type of tracks to be ridden , etc. . Couldn't wait to get them . Delivery was on time. Put the units on and sat on the bike - fender went to the tire . I thought, no problem , just adjust the preload . With the spring cranked all the way tight , the rider sag still took up more than 3/4 of the travel . Obviously the incorrect spring . Had a race in 3 days so getting other springs from Works was not an option ( did call and have a " discussion " with the guy I ordered from though ) . Luckily I had a bunch of shock springs that I had collected over the years . Went trough them and found a set that gave me the sag I was looking for . Only problem with that was that the shock now blew through the rebound so fast that the rear tire almost leaped off the ground if you pushed down hard on the seat and let go . Raced the bike that way and it actually wasn't horrible but of course the rear end kicked quite a bit . Found a guy in southern Ohio who serviced Works shocks and had him revalve ( shim ? ) the units and use a little heavier oil .Finally the shocks worked nice for me . Still not quite Ohlins performance though .

So that is my experience . Hope it helps a bit . Think I would still buy Works but would be more pro-active in their construction . Some guys who recommended them told me ( after the fact of course ) that they always tell them they are about 25 - 50 pounds heavier . Also found out from other Husky Mag racers that they ordered shocks an inch longer than stock ( after the fact of course ) to help the bike's front end stick better . Wish I had gotten the longer shocks . Oh well . I believe that even if you get the most expensive suspenders available , they still may need some tweaking to perform to your liking . Somewhere on the AHRMA website there is a chart that shows the allowable shock travel ( translate to exposed shock shaft ) for most bikes . Handy to know as this is what they measure at tech inspection .
 
I've known a number of folks who've been satisfied with Works Performance shocks, but I've not had a good experience with them on two different occasions.

First time was way back in 1979, ordered a set of their high end shocks for an RM250 and they were no better than a set of low dollar S&W's I had on the the bike.

Next time, was just last year when I ordered a shock for my 1981 YZ250. For being a "custom" made shock for an 81 YZ250 I was surprised how far off the shock was in regards to spring rate and damping. Called them about it, they basically pleaded ignorance and said it should have worked and said if I sent it back that they'd give it another try. Had no confidence in messing around with them after seeing how far off their first attempt was and sent it back and got a refund. I then saw my shock on Ebay about a week later and it was of course heavily discounted on ebay and it made me think that some other 81 YZ250 owner was going to be pissed after buying that shock.
 
When talking on the phone with Works on Tuesday, he did ask my weight, type of riding and what the measurement of my existing shocks were. They only measure 12.5" center to center on the bolts. He said definitely need a minimum of 13.5", but was leary of going 14".

My meager uneducated understanding on suspension design is that the spring controls compression, and rate of compression, and fluid or gas controls spring rebound. How do these higher end shocks do absorbing hard jump landings, they still bottom out correct? And if you have stronger springs more resistent to bottoming, are they yet still responsive enough for the fast choppy stuff?

And setting rider sag, how in the world do you realistically set sag, with only approximately 4" of travel and if you are running a beefier spring?
Of course another question that comes to mind, would it be ideal or better to consider running different springs for different tracks, and have extra springs on hand for that?

My major struggle still is that I just don't get to ride enough to tell what's good and bad with my suspension, especially considering that I'm still learning how to ride a bike with so little suspension. All that I really know for sure is that on jumps I am landing very hard and blowing through quickly. All the rest of the time it just feels ok, I guess? Probably one of those deals that you don't know how bad you have it until you get something better?

I'll probably get back on the phone with them this week and get a set coming. God, why do I have to be so obsessed with this sport?
Uggggh....More Overtime! :(
 
NQ1965 said:
When talking on the phone with Works on Tuesday, he did ask my weight, type of riding and what the measurement of my existing shocks were. They only measure 12.5" center to center on the bolts. He said definitely need a minimum of 13.5", but was leary of going 14".

My meager uneducated understanding on suspension design is that the spring controls compression, and rate of compression, and fluid or gas controls spring rebound. How do these higher end shocks do absorbing hard jump landings, they still bottom out correct? And if you have stronger springs more resistent to bottoming, are they yet still responsive enough for the fast choppy stuff?

And setting rider sag, how in the world do you realistically set sag, with only approximately 4" of travel and if you are running a beefier spring?
Of course another question that comes to mind, would it be ideal or better to consider running different springs for different tracks, and have extra springs on hand for that?

My major struggle still is that I just don't get to ride enough to tell what's good and bad with my suspension, especially considering that I'm still learning how to ride a bike with so little suspension. All that I really know for sure is that on jumps I am landing very hard and blowing through quickly. All the rest of the time it just feels ok, I guess? Probably one of those deals that you don't know how bad you have it until you get something better?

I'll probably get back on the phone with them this week and get a set coming. God, why do I have to be so obsessed with this sport?
Uggggh....More Overtime! :(
Click to expand...


Here's what I know and it ain't much. You want the compression and rebound to be controlled by the shock and not the spring. You want the spring to be just stiff enough to hold the bike up with your weight on it. Too stiff of a spring will cause the rear to kick up, overcoming the rebound on the shock and all your jumps will be nose down and it'll ride like a hard tail. Too light will be too much sag and you'll lose travel and the compression of the shock will be overcome and bottom easily. You want the dampening of the shock to control the movement of the rear wheel. It'll still bottom out with big hits and jumps but it should take some of the hit out. It should also keep the tire on the track more, driving the bike forward with the bonus of being a smoother ride. You can also go overboard with compression on the shock to where it won't be compliant enough (too stiff) and with rebound where the rear end will squat, it won't return fast enough. I believe the old shocks are like 50/50 rebound/compression and the new technology allows better, more accurate dampening both ways.

They actually make a shock dyno that graphs the compression/rebound so they can adjust shim stacks. I got to hang out with the Penske shock (talk about pricey) guys at the SCCA Runoffs when they were at Mid-Ohio and watch them dyno the shocks on the car I was helping with and several other cars. It was actually pretty interesting, I learned quite a bit from them.

Sounds great, right? All that being said, I still can't talk myself into a set of Works, it's still only 4 inches of travel. :)

The Works shock I put on my '81 KX worked great right out of the box. I set the sag, adjusted the compression/rebound and good to go. Lucky, I guess.

Kevin
 
KRH said:
You want the compression and rebound to be controlled by the shock and not the spring. You want the spring to be just stiff enough to hold the bike up with your weight on it. Too stiff of a spring will cause the rear to kick up, overcoming the rebound on the shock and all your jumps will be nose down and it'll ride like a hard tail. Too light will be too much sag and you'll lose travel and the compression of the shock will be overcome and bottom easily. You want the dampening of the shock to control the movement of the rear wheel. It'll still bottom out with big hits and jumps but it should take some of the hit out. It should also keep the tire on the track more, driving the bike forward with the bonus of being a smoother ride. You can also go overboard with compression on the shock to where it won't be compliant enough (too stiff) and with rebound where the rear end will squat, it won't return fast enough. I believe the old shocks are like 50/50 rebound/compression and the new technology allows better, more accurate dampening both ways.
Click to expand...

I always figured that the damping was always matched to the spring so that the spring couldn't overcome it?
 
NQ1965 said:
So what did you end up with on your YZ.
I'll consider any setup if it works effectively.
Click to expand...

My YZ250 situation is kinda apples to oranges to a vintage bike with it having 11 inches of travel...mentioned it to let you know my experience with Works Performance was less than good. I ended up sending my stock YZ shock off to Race Tech and they installed a gold valve and did their dual rate spring mod which makes for a nice monoshock setup while not breaking the bank.

If budget were no expense, I'd no doubt do the Ohlins route on a 4" travel bike. But in the real world where my budget comes into play, I tend to think along the lines of KRH and would go the less pricey rear shock route for a 4" travel bike. But then, take that with a grain of salt as I've not ridden a 4" travel bike in the dirt since about 1975.
 
mooch said:
Considering the price difference, I'd personally give a lot of consideration to an inexpensive set of Progressives that come in 13 or 13.5 sizes with a couple of different spring options.

http://www.powersportsplace.com/search/product-line/progressive-suspension-12-series-shocks
Click to expand...

NQ over thinking again? I still know a guy with Progressives with 65 lbs springs willing let you give them a try. Even have a set with 75 lbs springs from a 400 Husky. Think they are all 13.5 inches. My only experience with Thermo Flows was on small displacement MX's back in the day. I'd say the Progressives are better.
 
NQ1965 said:
I always figured that the damping was always matched to the spring so that the spring couldn't overcome it?
Click to expand...

Yes, that's right. That's why Works and others want to know your weight, skill and use. What I was saying is the shock, not the spring, should control the compression and rebound. The spring still has to be right and it's the easiest part. Everything still has to be set up together for them to work right. That's what I would expect for buying a set of high dollar shocks, you know? I wonder if I didn't spring the extra hundred bucks for adjustability on the KX shock if I would be as happy as I am with it.

Anyway, I'm way off topic. Your (and mine, too) question is if Works or Ohlins make enough difference or are "off the rack" shocks like Progressives or Redwing Hammerheads good enough for 4 inches of travel. Another question I have is has anyone tried the Marty Tripes Noleen vintage bike shocks?

Maybe we can continue the above conversation over a couple drinks at VMD, NQ.

Kevin
 
k01 said:
NQ over thinking again? I still know a guy with Progressives with 65 lbs springs willing let you give them a try. Even have a set with 75 lbs springs from a 400 Husky. Think they are all 13.5 inches. My only experience with Thermo Flows was on small displacement MX's back in the day. I'd say the Progressives are better.
Click to expand...

Yes, and my brain hurts already.
I recieved the Hammerheads yesterday, will get them installed next couple days which should get me through Vintage Days. Definitely wanna try the Progressives.

I've watched my camcorder videos of a couple of the vintage class's at Vintage Days last year, and am still amazed at the speed that some of these guys are able to attack the track with on these bikes as well as how well they handle track obstacles. My thinking tells me that you'll probably have to be set up with the suspension stiff to handle the big hits and ride that hard.

I'm not really looking for perfection, I just don't wanna be spewing shock or fork oil, which seems like I experience a lot.
 
KRH gave a great explanation of the shocks' functions . Both compression and rebound damping are controlled by the valving and to some extent the shock fluid's viscosity .

I ended up using a progressive wound set of springs ( which Works did not recommend doing if I remember correctly ) . This allowed for a bit softer ride and better tracking over the stutter bumps , but get pretty stiff at full compression . This is what probably made them need the valving changed . A lot of the longer , post-vintage bike shocks utilize a 2 spring setup ; a short " soft " spring in conjunction with a longer " stiff " spring to function over the full range of terrain/obstacles .

Not absolutely sure what is the correct method of setting the rider sag on these old bikes . If you sit on the bike and it doesn't move - too stiff . If the fender squats down on the tire - too soft . I try to allow 1/4 to 1/3 of the travel ( an inch to an inch and a quarter or so ) for rider sag . That is what has worked out best for me .

Yes , the shocks will bottom out but ideally you want them to do that on only the biggest/hardest hits they will be subjected to . Some oldtimers say a good seat will give you the extra travel you need .:) The tire , shocks ,your legs/arms , and seat on a vintage bike can absorb rougher terrain than you may think possible . I have seen some of the better expert racers do some BIG jumps on these old bikes . Take a look at AHRMA361 's avatar on this site . I took that pic at MidOhio . Tires , suspension , and probably his kidneys were fully compressed on his PV Honda . We were doing that very same jump with the vintage bikes the day before ( even I was jumping it on the Mag ) . You felt the hit clear up your spine and I swear it felt like the bike was bowing in the middle . Wish we had gotten some pics of that .

IMO , the high end shocks are ultimately worth it . With only 4 inches of travel it seems even more important to me to get the best suspension performance you can . Easier on the bike , easier on the body - harder on the wallet .

I know that KO is an advocate of the " front wheel high " landing . With my emulator modified forks , I prefer to flat land a jump or even let the front wheel slightly contact first . For me , on my bike setup , this allows a softer landing ( front has almost double the travel of the rear and is also better controlled ) .

NQ , if you do get the Works units , I would suggest you make sure they are clear on their policy of exchanging springs and revalving if you are not satisfied with the shocks they first send you . Sure is a pain to have to ship the units back to Cali for service . Mark Weaver from near Zanesville is who I had revalve my Works shocks .
 
halffast said:
I know that KO is an advocate of the " front wheel high " landing . With my emulator modified forks , I prefer to flat land a jump or even let the front wheel slightly contact first . For me , on my bike setup , this allows a softer landing ( front has almost double the travel of the rear and is also better controlled ) .

NQ , if you do get the Works units , I would suggest you make sure they are clear on their policy of exchanging springs and revalving if you are not satisfied with the shocks they first send you . Sure is a pain to have to ship the units back to Cali for service . Mark Weaver from near Zanesville is who I had revalve my Works shocks .
Click to expand...

The rear wheel landing is just a basic Yamaha 360/250 MX survival thing. I can get away with more on my '74 Husky just because the Yamaha is a tank. But an amazingly fun tank. The brief times I've been able to keep Tim Shephard in sight, I've seen him do things on his '74 YZ that would hurt me if I tried them on my MX. The full size Yamaha MX bikes are great in some applications and a talented rider can ride the wheels off them to make the go but they are never going to be as capable as much of the competition.

I got one of my bikes through Mark Weaver.
 
Novice - Progressive or Works
Intermidate - Works or Ohlins
Expert - Ohlins as you get what you pay for!

I put Ohlins on my 76 Maico 250 & loved them...what a diffference they made! Blows real bad that I can't race right now.....

Maico Mark
 
Or...

Tight budget - Progressives

A few extra bucks in the budget and have some time to dial in - Works Performance

Won the lottery budget - Ohlins
 
I can only comment on vintage not post vintage sshocks.

Ive used them all and to me and my style of riding, I don't think any of the aftermarket shocks were any better than the stock 1974 Honda 125 shocks.
On my 250 honda and hoosks I used old cerianni's.

People will argue about damping, springs or whatever...to me it's all about your style of riding. I grew up on bikes without travel so I learned how to bunny hop or just jump over things instead of letting them pound me.

Put the bux in your mo mo......
 

Attachments

  • cr125.jpg
    cr125.jpg
    81.7 KB · Views: 526
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top