50 and 65 Parents??

[John250]

I remember 50, 60, 80 jr / sr, schoolboy, 125 B, 125 A, 250B, 250A and VET. That's it.

 

[Chilli Town MX]

Everyone is always going to have a biased opinion when it comes to classes. You can make 100 different arguments and still never make everyone see it your way. There are so many factors to developing a class structure and there is no way to make everyone happy. This is why Loretta’s has two full days of qualifying to fit in all the classes.

We will never see the days of running just the basic classes like we did back in the day so you might as well come to terms with it...those days are gone. Think about some of the things we have all said over the years like "I’m not going to travel 2 or 3 hours to a race just to run one class" or "I hate sitting around all day just to get a few laps"

There are just too many factors that go into it. Some say get rid of the super mini class but what if the kid is too small for a 125 but needs a little more power to prepare him for when he is big enough. Some say to ax the extra/open mini classes like 50, 65, and 80 extra classes but what if the kid only has one bike and can't afford two different bikes? Then you are reduced to riding one class and most will go race elsewhere or not race at all if these aren’t offered for that very reason alone. The same goes for 250A and 450A...pro riders want to maximize their efforts by racing as many money classes as possible, i.e. 25+A, 30+A, 250A and Open A.

A lot of people forget that most every class ever invented has gone hand in hand with what MX Sports does with their class structure for Loretta Lynn's. Anything that has been made different than Loretta classes has been made up to accommodate the riders that don’t chase the nationals. So what are we trying to accomplish here? Reduce the classes offered so the gates will be bigger and the days will be shorter? Not likely to happen because people want their classes and want to cut out everyone else’s. If you start cutting classes the days will be shorter because the turnouts will be less and gates will suffer as a result. Before long you will see races being cancelled not due to weather but because of low turnouts because the promoter can't afford to operate on such low numbers...just look at D11 last year. I think that theory was proved out.

The fact of the matter is this is local racing no matter how you look at it and there will always be more local points chasers and the normal every-once-in-a-while-racers than the national level hardcore racers that tracks want to show up at their events to validate them as the track to race or the event to go to. It is our jobs as promoters to put on an event that has classes that suit as many talent levels as possible to keep our riders and racers interested in the sport.


It is the belief at CTMX that we will do our best to make every rider feel like they are equal whether they ride the 50 beginner or the 450 Pro class. No tracks are perfect and we all make mistakes from time to time. Everyone needs to remember that this is the first year of the OMA and it’s not going to be perfect right out of the gate. There are going to be misunderstandings of the rulebooks that allows riders to enter classes they shouldn't, there are going to be people that push the rulebook to see what they can get away with and there are going to be new issues that pop up that will make even the best tracks struggle but we need to go into this with a open mind and give unbiased opinions to help grow the organization or it will fail.

Sorry JO...didn’t mean to derail this post any further but I needed to get that off my chest.

 

[John250]

Chilitown.....I am not sure you really said anything in all that! So what you just said is a guy looking to run two 65 classes because he has one bike is in 65 7-11 and 65 extra.......but the rules state it is a beginner class. But you also allow 65s in the 85 class, there were about 3 of them on Sunday, so that blows that theory. D11 is NOT gone because of low rider counts. While DC had some low turnouts, DMC and AMS, and Chilitown all had good turnouts, from what you posted they cut classes and are gone......your wrong. D11 is gone because they were not providing the tracks anything, all the tracks are still open and racing.

Go ahead and run 27 motos........but in my opinion, this IS NOT one of the things that when OMA was being talked about was going to happen. OMA was not concerned with AMA Loretta Lynns classes......you were "outlaw" could do your own thing, etc. While I really like what I see in track prep, promotion, and running of the races, when it comes to classes, OMA did NOTHING different than any AMA track, matter of fact you added classes because D11 never ran quads.

People we change if they have too. Just like the C Class issue. If OMA said one C class......people would STILL COME. My guess is some of the guys would sign up for college boy, or the B class if they did not like having one C class. Besides, C is a beginner class........we must have a TON of new people coming into the sport looking at all the bikes in C class.

I am not even sure when the Briar Cliff Utophia race is, but it will be interesting to see how many people show up for that race, and how the class structure works out for that race. I have said it for the last 10 years, and will continue to say it.........THERE ARE WAY TOO MANY CLASSES AND SOME NEED TO GO!

 

[Chilli Town MX]

Not everyone wants their kid riding in a class with a smaller bike because they are at a disadvantage or they feel their kid is unsafe around the bigger bikes and because they don't meet the beginner requirement they are back to riding just the one class. At CTMX this past weekend we added a 50 extra, 65 extra and 250 Pro class at the request of many riders. These were an addition too the OMA points classes already scheduled to run. The 65 extra was not deemed a beginner class as you previously stated. The class you were referring to is the 65/85 beginner class. There was confusion on this class and CTMX takes full responsibility for the mix up with allowing non-beginners in the class. We will police this better in the future. It was brought to my attention later in the day that there were parents that were aware of what had happened but no one came to Kurt Mosher with a protest. This would have settled the whole issue.

As far as D11, it folded due to many reasons and I was only pointing out one issue with how things were last year at some of their events. There are many things that can be done to speed up the day and we are working on ideas to help that.

It's obvious that you have issues with the C class and we all agree that too many riders sandbag in this class but its been that way forever. I don't know all the answers but I know one thing...running a track is hard work and trying to make even half the people happy is even harder. You are always more than welcome to start your own track and run races the way you see fit. I assure you that its not as easy as droppig a few classes and combining a few classes to shorten the day. I have always encouraged everyone that is as vocal as you to get involved with a track so that you can really see the behind the scenes issues that arise with some of the things you are suggesting. I venture to say you will be surprised at what you learn.

The OMA was founded by indivduals just like you that are passionate about our sport and how to make it better. As always we appreciate your opinion.

 

[John250]

My family and I have worked races in many different forms of motorcycle racing for 43 years. From the local level to the national level, so I do know exactly what goes on to promote and run a race. I want to find one person though that thinks dropping a gate 27 times (times 2) is a good thing. I am not bashing CTMX, BC or the OMA. Just feel there are too many classes.

I could care less about the C class, just think it is one are where a sanctioning body like OMA could try something new, rather than doing the same thing the AMA is doing.

I don't know what anyone can really do to shorten a day with 27 gate drops. My son and I were in race 6, 8 and 12.......we left about 5:40. things seemed to be moving fairly well, then all the sudden it got real slow and never picked back up.

 

[BriarcliffMx]

My family and I have worked races in many different forms of motorcycle racing for 43 years. From the local level to the national level, so I do know exactly what goes on to promote and run a race. I want to find one person though that thinks dropping a gate 27 times (times 2) is a good thing. I am not bashing CTMX, BC or the OMA. Just feel there are too many classes.

I could care less about the C class, just think it is one are where a sanctioning body like OMA could try something new, rather than doing the same thing the AMA is doing.

I don't know what anyone can really do to shorten a day with 27 gate drops. My son and I were in race 6, 8 and 12.......we left about 5:40. things seemed to be moving fairly well, then all the sudden it got real slow and never picked back up.

I think the real problem with today is that the motocross community is very diverse. We have several different bikes to meet various skill levels, ages, height/weight. And I think that we do need all these different groups to make a good turnout, or what people feel was a good turnout. Its just like practice, if we dont offer these classes those will go elsewhere, when im closed where do people go? Route 62. Its not like the OMA is the only race organization in Ohio or in the region, period. We have competition, and if they are offering classes to steal riders, then that would be a major concern. Espcially when we are trying to earn everyone's business and trust, and we are trying.

In the end, with this being the first year, I didnt feel that jepordizing our success with a radical class schedule was worth the risk. We are starting to show now that we have something here, and we need to build upon it, but you dont throw hail mary passes in the first quarter when your up a couple scores. We will continue to think about as we always do.

This is not me arguing with you John, and I do understand your feedback, and I appreciate your efforts to brainstorm on the proposed class structure. I like it personally, I think it covers all the major race groups as a whole. Maybe over time we can boldly gravitate toward something like this, but keep the long day traditional moto too. Who knows.

 

[#23_Racing]

I liked how Chili Town Added the 250A class, Im not sure we would make the trip again just to run with 450's but would make the trip again for a 250 A drop. I say if you have 27 classes thats great more the better and leaving the track at 5-6 is not all that bed either, These tracks either need to bring more to the table or take away and I would rather see 27 good classes and leave at 5-6 than having 12 shitty classes and be gone by 3. The key for a long day is having entertainment when not racing like a GOOD anouncer that can be heard and will play some good tunes that can also be heard. Just look at how Baja runs, the anouncer is funny and plays alot of 80's rock along with some of the new hip hop I love just listening to him when sitting in the pits also rider interviews when the leader comes off the track stop him and chat some times, make racing a awsome event all around not just dropping gates. If kids or adults think if they win they will get a interview like the pro do on TV then that gives them a goal to get better, heck even pull a random rider and talk with him or her. So many things a track can do to make a long day feel shorter and fun. Best track we have ever been to puts on a hell of a show and thats Dade City in Fl I wasnt even a racer and I felt pumped up all night.

 

[007DAD]

I liked how Chili Town Added the 250A class, Im not sure we would make the trip again just to run with 450's but would make the trip again for a 250 A drop. I say if you have 27 classes thats great more the better and leaving the track at 5-6 is not all that bed either, These tracks either need to bring more to the table or take away and I would rather see 27 good classes and leave at 5-6 than having 12 shitty classes and be gone by 3. The key for a long day is having entertainment when not racing like a GOOD anouncer that can be heard and will play some good tunes that can also be heard. Just look at how Baja runs, the anouncer is funny and plays alot of 80's rock along with some of the new hip hop I love just listening to him when sitting in the pits also rider interviews when the leader comes off the track stop him and chat some times, make racing a awsome event all around not just dropping gates. If kids or adults think if they win they will get a interview like the pro do on TV then that gives them a goal to get better, heck even pull a random rider and talk with him or her. So many things a track can do to make a long day feel shorter and fun. Best track we have ever been to puts on a hell of a show and thats Dade City in Fl I wasnt even a racer and I felt pumped up all night.

Now your talkin^^^^^ with going to nationals and other big events lots of promoters get this....it could be something as silly as a game for the kids or a father/son pit bike challenge etc etc. We are no stranger to long days...so hell yeah...mix it up alittle!! I noticed at chillitown that they were launching tee shirts ski high for the fans and kids to catch..there were kids running everywhere, heck I think I even tried for one but some 4-6 rider knock me out of the way (he was a very strong kid) and beat me to it.

 

[Mosher]

but no one came to Kurt Mosher with a protest. This would have settled the whole issue.

Actually, this is the first I even heard of this problem....here I was worried about the 50 beginners. These are growing pains that we should all expect and be patient with.

I saw, and was even involved in my own class, with some clarification of the rules, whether it be age, bike, rider level, or other restrictions. It will be handled and get better with time as we learn to better communicate throughout the organization between the riders, promoters, and volunteers.

BTW, I had 1 written protest at Chillitown and zero at BC.

 

[adam63]

I have been trying to stay on the sidelines but I do have a little insight to the original question and a thought about how to speed up the days and get more track time.

My boy is not too far removed from the 50 class at 11 years old. I didn't allow him to race until he could control himself and machine without constant help from me or the spectators. So he didn't race until he could pick it up and start it by himself, he was 5. I know I'm in the minority when it comes to this but I do have a point.

JO, it may be that your 50 turn out is not what it is at some tracks do to the majority of BC's existence you have been practice only and the small wheel bikes really didn't get much designated time on your track. I believe it is just a stigma that will ware off as the racing continues and you may need to designate (as much as I don't want to suggest it) more time for small wheel bikes on your main track during non race weekends to help solidify your main track as small wheel friendly, as we all know it is. As there are many ways to skin a cat, this is just one I have not heard mentioned recently.

As far as speeding up the format goes... hear me out and give it some thought. Rule of thumb or even a hard rule could be, put a minimum of 20 bikes or 10 quads on each gate drop, not staggers, but each gate drop. It may be slightly complicated (what about running a track isn't) and some controversial decisions would need to be made in the beginning and from time to time but, in the long run people will thank you for it. There would need to be some exceptions possibly, beginner 50's, beginner quads, and pro bike and quad.

Take last week for example:
1.ATV Vet, Women, C, and schoolboy all on one gate.
2.Mini Sr open, prod. and Jr, one gate. Micro either separate or stagger with the previous class.
3. Money quad stagger with the B group.
4. Maybe one extra class that allows any and all to enter of the same wheel or frame size.

5. Vet 30, 40, and plus 25 one gate.
6. open c and vet sport, women
7. pro bike (some days stagger with open B)
8. 250 b and 2 stroke.
9. 250 c.
10.college boy and school boy.
11.girls, senior trail, 65/85 beginner.
12. Jr mini, Sr mini.
13. super mini.
14. 65 and 50 Sr.
15. 50 jr. and beginner

With this lay out you could add a couple extra classes just to get extra seat time. One big bike class, one mid size bike (supers and 80's) and one small wheel class 65's and below. That adds 3 more motos, now we are up to 18. That's an average savings of two hours on the day. With that type of savings you may not need to cut laps and may be able to add laps, more bang for your buck. With the short period of time I laid this out I may have missed something but you get the point.

I know there are pro's and con's any way you do it. It seems the majority wants to race as much as they can, get as much seat time as possible, and not feel like they were waiting too long. My first thought is load the gates up with as many classes as possible and race!

That's why we are all here right... to race. The same problems that exist with the smaller gates will still exist with multiple classes combined, just a few more of them. When I first started seeing the formation of the OMA this was the idea I thought was coming, I know... there is still time.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[jrminiquad]

Adam, I like that thinking. Not really taking away any of the classes the OMA has already established, nor adding a bunch. Sure would speed things up, and I don't really see any imminent danger with any of those combinations. Might be tough determining holeshot awards though when you have multiple classes on the same gate. Do you give out one to the over-all holeshot winner, or to the winner of each class?

 

[BriarcliffMx]

I have been trying to stay on the sidelines but I do have a little insight to the original question and a thought about how to speed up the days and get more track time.

My boy is not too far removed from the 50 class at 11 years old. I didn't allow him to race until he could control himself and machine without constant help from me or the spectators. So he didn't race until he could pick it up and start it by himself, he was 5. I know I'm in the minority when it comes to this but I do have a point.

JO, it may be that your 50 turn out is not what it is at some tracks do to the majority of BC's existence you have been practice only and the small wheel bikes really didn't get much designated time on your track. I believe it is just a stigma that will ware off as the racing continues and you may need to designate (as much as I don't want to suggest it) more time for small wheel bikes on your main track during non race weekends to help solidify your main track as small wheel friendly, as we all know it is. As there are many ways to skin a cat, this is just one I have not heard mentioned recently.

As far as speeding up the format goes... hear me out and give it some thought. Rule of thumb or even a hard rule could be, put a minimum of 20 bikes or 10 quads on each gate drop, not staggers, but each gate drop. It may be slightly complicated (what about running a track isn't) and some controversial decisions would need to be made in the beginning and from time to time but, in the long run people will thank you for it. There would need to be some exceptions possibly, beginner 50's, beginner quads, and pro bike and quad.

Take last week for example:
1.ATV Vet, Women, C, and schoolboy all on one gate.
2.Mini Sr open, prod. and Jr, one gate. Micro either separate or stagger with the previous class.
3. Money quad stagger with the B group.
4. Maybe one extra class that allows any and all to enter of the same wheel or frame size.

5. Vet 30, 40, and plus 25 one gate.
6. open c and vet sport, women
7. pro bike (some days stagger with open B)
8. 250 b and 2 stroke.
9. 250 c.
10.college boy and school boy.
11.girls, senior trail, 65/85 beginner.
12. Jr mini, Sr mini.
13. super mini.
14. 65 and 50 Sr.
15. 50 jr. and beginner

With this lay out you could add a couple extra classes just to get extra seat time. One big bike class, one mid size bike (supers and 80's) and one small wheel class 65's and below. That adds 3 more motos, now we are up to 18. That's an average savings of two hours on the day. With that type of savings you may not need to cut laps and may be able to add laps, more bang for your buck. With the short period of time I laid this out I may have missed something but you get the point.

I know there are pro's and con's any way you do it. It seems the majority wants to race as much as they can, get as much seat time as possible, and not feel like they were waiting too long. My first thought is load the gates up with as many classes as possible and race!

That's why we are all here right... to race. The same problems that exist with the smaller gates will still exist with multiple classes combined, just a few more of them. When I first started seeing the formation of the OMA this was the idea I thought was coming, I know... there is still time.

Just thinking out loud.

I like the idea of gravitating toward the "GP" like waves, if we could just get people to switch from 2-3 classes to one longer moto mentality. Thats why a schedule like that would not work in the world of today. Too many conflicts with people running multiple classes. It would be great to throw a list like that up and tell everyone pick one class per wave, and we will give 5-6 lap motos. Not enough open minds, I have seen this in the OMA's short existence.

 

[iMoto23]

yep, I agree with BC. what if I wanna run 250b and 2stroke. this wouldn't work. or if I raced women and schoolboy. or women and C. what if I had a kid that raced 50 and 65 beginner? GP format just doesn't work, thats what this is MX, not GP. don't like all the motos? quit going. like he said earlier, with all the bikes, skill levels, heights and weights, you can't just run 10 different classes. doesn't work like that, times change. deal with it or get out of the sport.

 

[Kenny Henry]

How do people not understand, 2 Longer 6-7 lap motos is the same riding as four 3-4 lap motos, and it is cheaper(for the riders). Does everyone really need first place? If so, we can set up a donation system so who ever wants a first place trophy gets one.

 

[Bee Racing]

Agree!!!

 

[hershey]

I dont think this is the correct attitude people, the idea that started this thread was to make a better racing experience for everyone! Imagine if track owners had the attitude " If you dont like it dont come" in general, what do you think would happen to the turnouts?

With all the tracks that have closed I imagine maybe there has been that attitude around......

 

[adam63]

I like the idea of gravitating toward the "GP" like waves, if we could just get people to switch from 2-3 classes to one longer moto mentality. Thats why a schedule like that would not work in the world of today. Too many conflicts with people running multiple classes. It would be great to throw a list like that up and tell everyone pick one class per wave, and we will give 5-6 lap motos. Not enough open minds, I have seen this in the OMA's short existence.

The idea is basically combining similar speed classes on one gate but still scoring separate. Still trying to accommodate as many as possible that want to run more than say, two classes, but at times (probably more often than not) having to say "no, we are not going to separate that gate just for 2 or 3 riders so those 2 or 3 can run 3 or more classes"

The conflicts could be solved by adding the extra bike class. For those who really just want to race and don't care who they are racing against, get in it and let's race.

 

[Lotts24]

This is just a thought. Why not run the moto's timed motos. At Area 51 they run 12 minute motos for every group that leaves the gate. With it being a decent size track faster groups are getting 4 laps and the rest pretty much 3. Everyone gets the same amount of time whether it be A class or the 50 class. They run a bunch of classes as well and do combine classes on the gate but I do feel they run through their program a little faster. Either way we will still be there.

 

[adam63]

yep, I agree with BC. what if I wanna run 250b and 2stroke. this wouldn't work. or if I raced women and schoolboy. or women and C. what if I had a kid that raced 50 and 65 beginner? GP format just doesn't work, thats what this is MX, not GP. don't like all the motos? quit going. like he said earlier, with all the bikes, skill levels, heights and weights, you can't just run 10 different classes. doesn't work like that, times change. deal with it or get out of the sport.

I'm not suggesting we switch to a total GP format. Yes, squeeze a few more classes together.

If you want to run 250b and two stroke, you can. Under this system there are a few ways to look at it. Pay for both classes, hopefully podium in both classes, but you will only ride on one gate drop. There would still be moto 1 and moto 2 and you could get scored for two separate classes in the same moto. I know, seems silly right? The second option, pick one or the other class, then for your second class make it be the extra bike class.

I assume you pose the question about not liking all the moto's as a general statement? I love all the moto's as I'm sure most of us do, that's why we do it. I would rather see 20 to 40 bikes on the gate gett'n after it rather than 5 to 10. If we stick to 5 to 10 on a gate I'll still go. I've been racing for more than 30 years and don't plan on quitting anytime soon!

Here is another way to look at it. As racers we are paying for a service. No different than going to the grocery store and paying for milk. Track owners don't take this the wrong way, I am happy to pay for the service as I assume we all are. We get half way through the day and part of the service is cut out (due to time constraints or any other miss fortune, you name it) but we already paid for the entire service. Imagine that happened to your milk, how would you handle it? This is not a complaint that is high on my list but it is a complaint I hear a lot when I walk through the pits during the second half of the motos.

The way the system is set now, a man (or woman for that matter) at 40 years old with a 250cc two stroke bike can race pro bike, 25 plus, 30 plus, 40 plus, and two stroke. If this person is a woman and the track has a separate lights pro class, now she gets seven classes. Now look at a 85cc beginner, he is stuck with one under the current system. We agree these two situations are the extremes? Building a program similar to the one I suggest would cut a couple from the 40 plus guy and add one to the beginner. That is just one example and I am sure there are many more throughout the entire program.

In the society we have now some may suggest, to make it fair we need to offer 5 classes for everybody because the 40 plus guy has 5!

 

[adam63]

This is just a thought. Why not run the moto's timed motos. At Area 51 they run 12 minute motos for every group that leaves the gate. With it being a decent size track faster groups are getting 4 laps and the rest pretty much 3. Everyone gets the same amount of time whether it be A class or the 50 class. They run a bunch of classes as well and do combine classes on the gate but I do feel they run through their program a little faster. Either way we will still be there.

Not that my opinion really matters... My first thought is, I like that thought, but I will need to give it more thought!

I second the motion, either way we will still be there.