How to make motocross safer?

the new 250fs are really fast. id be really curious to know what kind of power a factory 250f was making back in like 05? ANybody care to dig into that? Just would like to compare. Hell I'm curious what a stock 250f back then made also...
 
2005 yz250f... stock HP 34.5. 2015 stock yz250f: 41 HP

And out of curiosity... 2005 yz450f: 48......

I know that you can get 48HP out of a 2014/2015 yz250f fairly easily, and i'd bet most of the guys at the top amateur level are right there at that level...

So.. looking back 10 years when 4 strokes started taking over... 450 wasnt so bad... but now we have 250f's that are just as fast as the 450s were then....

Not sure the point im making with that... but just some information to think about. I think I'm saying that 250fs are plenty fast enough.
 
2014 YZ125....stock HP 34.01
2014 YZ250....stock HP 47.01

Just for comparison. My opinion, these are the horsepower numbers that make sense. Professionals are one thing. Ryan Dungey can use the power of a factory 450, but there isn't one of us on this site that needs 58 HP.

Also, as Hershey was trying to elude to, the kids dying on 250f's shouldn't be on them yet. There is a value to learning to ride a big bike that only has 34 HP. I believe that a modern 250f is a premier class bike, not a support class. There are very few 14-15 year old kids that are ready for 41 HP between their legs. That may upset some people, but it's true.
 
my opinion..... ONCE AGAIN MY OPINION!!!!!! Arent the people are to blame? Just because you can go buy a fast bike, or you have a fast bike, doesnt make you fast. Its just like the street bikes, noone in the world needs a 1300cc Street bike, or even a 1000cc. Theres alot of things in this world that people cant handle and dont need. But the problem is, people continue to buy them and continue to get hurt on them, or even killed. Granted, the industry in a whole could make MX safer, but i highly doubt that will happen. I know that i dont need the power of a 450, b/c i know i cant ride my 250F to its full potential. So in my opinion no need for a 450 then. "well its faster" "its easier to ride" blah blah blah.

The thing i see that really blows my mind is when you see these 16 year olds who arent experienced at racing/riding, getting a 450 and racing it. 1. b/c they cant handle the power. 2. They dont have experience to handle something like that on a track. 3. The only reason they bought a 450 is to impress their friends b/c they bought a 450 and their friends only have 250F's. 4. Half of these kids only have this stuff b/c mommy and daddy, or grandma and grandpa buy everything for them.

So for most cases with these kids and young adults, do you blame them for inexperience and too fast of a bike, or do you blame the parents/grandparents for buying them a bike they cant truly handle??
 
Its all of it combined, here is why.

You cant fix stupid! If you give people the opportunity to screw themselves they will. If they can buy to fast a bike for their ability they will. If there is a jump they shouldnt try yet, they will. If they need to ride over their abilities to win, they will.

As a parent ect, it your responsibility to teach your kid not to be stupid. To ride the right size bike and only push the limits a little bit. Problem is most parents are stupid. Stupid breeds stupid.

As a rider its your responsibility to do the same for yourself. Problem is stupid people will do anything to get on FB , youtube , instagram or whatever it is and be the next Robbie Maddison. Or they think they can be the next top pro. Stupid is as stupid does.

As a track owner its your job to think about these stupid people and reduce their options to be stupid. Its not about control over riders, its about limiting injuries and liability. Plus I cant imagine the feeling of knowing a rider DIED at your track. Regardless of who is to blame I wouldnt want to live with that knowledge the rest of my life. Remember, people are just plain stupid. Give a rider the opportunity to be stupid and he will, remember that is your track designs.


Of course that is just my stupid opinion
 
Well i have talked to Jason at THE VERN many times. And thats always his concern with track changes. Making it friendly for everyone and not crazy where people are gonna get hurt. For instance, the step on step off by the woods. He didnt really think anyone would actually just jump the whole thing (quad it i guess you could say). Sure enough the very first day, someone did it. Pretty sure i remember his jaw dropped.

So that just proves even when you build something you feel is safe, or atleast safer. There will always be "those guys" who wanna go bigger than everyone else. For instance, look at Rookie White

So i feel part of the reason MX isnt as safe as it was, is simply b/c of the riders and riders parents.
 
I look at that video of the kid from I think Beans. He tried to quad something that even on the video, your like WTF? I am not sure Bubba or a top level pro tries that leap. Or the leap the 16 year old made in California, and there was another rider in the same section when he did it! These kids DO NOT THINK, and DO NOT CARE what the result will be if it ends bad.

Neither of those sections should have been jumped in one leap, but they were. To Hersheys point, if they were on a 125, they are NOT EVEN THINKING about trying to leap 150 foot.
 
Joe Rice was the one from Beans, and im pretty sure he was thinking about it and someone found out. They told Joe that someone on a 250F hit it. Jo has always been a crazy jumper from what im told.
 
With nearly 5000 views and 150 posts, it is obvious that everyone cares and realizes something must be done. Also you can see in the many posts there is no one smoking gun here. Tracks, riders and equipment need to change. For sweeping change to happen it must be driven from the top down. If rules are established by the AMA, FIM or any other sanctioning / governing body that address and MANDATE those changes, things will change.
OEM's will have no choice but to bring back 125's for instance, and to discontinue 450's if the rules are set. If no class exists for them in the US (The largest market) then the Honda's, Kawasaki's and KTM's of the world will not continue to develop them and switch funding back to smaller displacement machines.
If rules are changed to say a minimum age of 20 for 250F's (This includes Pro's) then if gives time for the riders to mature both physically and mentally before throwing their leg over a bigger machine.
If track design is regulated and pre approved before competition, this may reduce the "opportunity" for dangerous sections to exist.
If personal protection equipment is required like neck braces and chest / back protectors the argument of a rider liking it or not goes away. (You have to deal with it)
I don't want our great sport to become vanilla, but I also don't want to read about another kid getting killed or seriously injured before SOMETHING is improved.
These changes will not be easy, but given the passion that the motocross community has for the sport, I think the change could come much sooner then later.
 
John250 said:
I look at that video of the kid from I think Beans. He tried to quad something that even on the video, your like WTF? I am not sure Bubba or a top level pro tries that leap. Or the leap the 16 year old made in California, and there was another rider in the same section when he did it! These kids DO NOT THINK, and DO NOT CARE what the result will be if it ends bad.

Neither of those sections should have been jumped in one leap, but they were. To Hersheys point, if they were on a 125, they are NOT EVEN THINKING about trying to leap 150 foot.
Click to expand...

Well to be fair, Joe Rice was on a two stroke IIRC. (probably a 250). And it isn't the bike making the choice to try crazy jumps, it's the rider... 50mph is 50mph.. etc. If he wanted to jump that jump and was on a 125 instead of a 250, he could of just gotten a longer run at it...
 
hershey said:
Its all of it combined, here is why.

You cant fix stupid! If you give people the opportunity to screw themselves they will. If they can buy to fast a bike for their ability they will. If there is a jump they shouldnt try yet, they will. If they need to ride over their abilities to win, they will.

As a parent ect, it your responsibility to teach your kid not to be stupid. To ride the right size bike and only push the limits a little bit. Problem is most parents are stupid. Stupid breeds stupid.

As a rider its your responsibility to do the same for yourself. Problem is stupid people will do anything to get on FB , youtube , instagram or whatever it is and be the next Robbie Maddison. Or they think they can be the next top pro. Stupid is as stupid does.

As a track owner its your job to think about these stupid people and reduce their options to be stupid. Its not about control over riders, its about limiting injuries and liability. Plus I cant imagine the feeling of knowing a rider DIED at your track. Regardless of who is to blame I wouldnt want to live with that knowledge the rest of my life. Remember, people are just plain stupid. Give a rider the opportunity to be stupid and he will, remember that is your track designs.


Of course that is just my stupid opinion
Click to expand...

Hershey...Are you talkin bout STUPID? We talkin bout Stupid ? I just want to know. Racin thats one thing, but STUPID?
 
This post has me in and out of my kid racing. Even if I teach him everything and he is perfect. There is always a Trey Canard to land on his back. Two stroke, three stroke or electric, still dangerous. (I use those examples cause they are some of the best but have been kind of a danger to others.)

I just put together my race schedule for him and I with mixed emotions.
 
I agree. I try not to think about the injuries. That is why I try not to push Matthew too hard. I suggest he try jumps that I know he is capable of jumping that he isn't, but never tell him to do something I think is outside his means. I mean, there are tracks where he jumps bigger, harder jumps........But yet another track that the jump is easier, and I have no idea why he does not jump it. Would love to be in his 11 year old mind sometimes. He is big and tall for his age, but at the end of the day he's 11 and never going to be RC.....but in his mind he is the next Dungey. Let a kid have his dreams and have fun with them.
 
I haven't been on in awhile. I'm often surprised that we keep having these conversations on here that never really seem to go anywhere past here.

I could think of so many ways to make the sport safer, and I've thrown out ideas a bunch of times. A free way to curb the gnarr, while possibly increasing turnouts would be to have A/B ONLY obstacles on the track. Either re-route the bigger stuff, or dissallow the mini's, C classes, and Vets, etc to attempt those big obstacles.

That way, nobody is tempted to do more than they should, and riders like myself, who have stepped back from the sport, would be tempted to come out and race again. That setup would also help curb the sandbagging. One track could cater to everyone w/o it being too hard or too easy.

Another area that I find problematic is the start. I'm always sweating the possible carnage in the starts. You could find a way to slow the starts-- possibly a chicane of some sort, or shortening the straight for the lesser classes?

I like the idea of limiting certain riders to certain bikes. I could see it hurting turnouts though.

IMO-- MX isn't a sport for everybody, and there are alot of alternatives to straight up MX out there. We can talk about it, or maybe take an idea and try it out once or twice, then get opinions. Talking alone isn't going to make the sport safer.... --L*64
 
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Hey Ya'll. I was just getting on pitracer to share some of the pictures I took today at Smith Road and what do ya know, ya'll are having a conversation about mx being unsafe. After reading some of the posts my jaw dropped and I can't help myself. My name is Abie Loebich, I grew up racing Moto. I lived for my dirt bike. In 2007 I had a nasty crash that ended in me fracturing my pelvis in 2 places, this was 2 weeks before I was planning on racing Steel City in the WMX as a pro. So I went to college, did some traveling and decided Montana would be my new home. Soon there after I got my bike there and started to get the "fever" again for speed. I had started dating the local pro and was involved as ever in racing. In February 2013 the boyfriend was doubling me down the street going slow to visit a friend. We hit ice, we high sited, and down we went. When we high sited, I flew off the back of the bike ripping the rider off with me, he landed on top of me. I broke his fall, I broke my skull. No helmet. I had stopped breathing. After being life flighted to Billings, Montana I was put into a coma for 2 weeks. When I woke I had to be taught how to walk, talk, read, write, eat, every single thing! A year after the accident I had finished all of my therapy! I have permanent scars, I have a traumatic brain injury, am color blind, have no peripheral visit, lost my sense of smell, have memory issues, and I need a gps to navigate me around my home town. With all of this, I would never point a finger, neither would my family. This horrible accident happened that had nearly taken my life in first gear. You can sit here and point the finger at the bikes, at the tracks, at friends, but lets be real.... It is all on you. You manage your risks. Yeah they make bikes go faster, do you have to go faster? No. They make jumps bigger, do you have to clear the bigger jumps? No. You sign a waver stating there are risks involved in riding a dirt bike. That means you understand it. Stop blaming the machines, the tracks, the riders, and so on. We ride because we love it. We get hurt sometimes because we love to push the button.
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Today my son is racing COCR, and he jumped a step up (really a double that the second jump is about three times the size of the take off). It is a really not a difficult jump, but it is high speed. Remember my son races, Mini Jr. I told him it was a momentum jump and IF he hit it, hit in on the gas. He cleared if couple times, but it looked to me like he cracked off the gas on the face, and the front nose dived. He rode both them out, but.....and here is the but...........It is a FAST jump. If you go down on a jump like that at speed, it is going to HURT. I thought about it, and kept thinking about what Hershey has said over and over. Jumps do not have to be third of forth gear jumps. And he is right.

My dad mentioned a huge stack of tires going into the first turn. He said what if someone hit those Damn things? He is right, they really serve no purpose on the track. That got me to thinking about what Knox has said many times on here.......Why does the AMA not inspect tracks, and make safety suggestions? And he is right. Why don't they? Tracks have to pay a sanction fee, what do they get for it?

There are a million reasons it unsafe, and a million suggestions to make it safer. But the bottom line I say all the time. Speed x height = impact. And our body can only take so much.
 
On the flagger issue at COCR, four years ago I broke my left fibula on the jumps directly after the south end hairpin turn. Blind jump, with another Vet rider downed on the landing side. Just missing him, I landed on his bike. The flagger who was sitting down hill of the last jump wasn't even watching and missed the whole thing.

I'm not sure what track changes (if any) COCR has made this year, but I raced there last fall. They had built a gullied out double jump right before the finish line that I felt was a little rediculous in it's design. It was almost like they dug out the middle. Sizing up the jump before practice I knew I could do it OK, but knew I would need to definitely be rung out in third gear minimum to clear it safely. Not having clearing speed and height would not be good.
So anyway, racing began. Many were jumping it, and many weren't even attempting, (which meant you had bikes flying over your head). I was jumping it without issue, but again, you had to have a good run going when you hit the jump face. Well, in my third moto, I got distracted and launched it once and wasn't carrying momentum and cased the face of the landing. I still remember it vividly, I made sure to stay on the gas to help with absorbing the oncoming wall (as it seemed). I knew my suspension would bottom and so I allowed my legs to absorb some of the impact as well.
The impact was brutal. I face planted my cross bar, and my bike still pogo'd. One foot came off the peg, but I managed to hang onto the bike and stay upright, but it wasn't pretty. I ended up with a nasty chin cut and was stoved up pretty good. My wife got the whole thing on video.

I continued hitting the jump cleanly again after that misshap, but I recall being mostly pissed off the rest of the day, thinking to myself, why would they build a jump this unsafe?????
 
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